Best fretless method for positions and intonation

[edspyhill02]

Is there a bass method for fretless BG that starts with learning the positions, shifting positions - especially descending, and intonation? From videos, etc, I get the impression the URB uses very different positions than fretted BG. It looks like an URB position includes placing the 1 & 4 fingers of the left hand.

Is fretless taught the same way? Does everyone use Simandl, Bille, etc for fretless?

Ed S.

[NickBass]

Hi, I have a book done by two fretless axes Bunny Brunel and Josquin Dès Près, it's called "Fretless Bass" and it includes also a cd, it's published by Hal Leonard Corporation...I found it quite interesting and useful!
It explains correct position (with lined fingerboard though), sclaes, thechniques (sliding, vibrato ecc...) ecc...

[FretLessSince68]

Because electric bass is a recently invented instrument, and fretless electric is even newer, there is little in the way of established tradition regarding technique such as Simandl etc. for the URB.

The instrument is very much a hybrid of URB and guitar, it follows that one successful approach to technique is also hybrid.

In the lowest regions of the 34" and 35" scale instrument, depending on what notes are being used, I frequently use something very similar to Simandl (but without the 3rd and 4th fingers locked) that I call comfort position. Basically, the left hand spans three semi-tones such as F, F#, and G, or G, G#, and A. In some situations I use Close guitar position in the lowest regions of the electric bass but it is a stretch and can be difficult if ones wrist position or other ergonomic aspects of the bass are not optimal.

In all other positions I often use "Close guitar position" meaning one finger per fret, translated to mean one finger per semi-tone, or note positions. Where the left hand spans four semi-tones such as Bb, B, C, and Db.

Then there is extended position, where the left thumb pivots (while remaining planted) to provide reach to higher notes without having to change left hand position.

Changing thumb positions to play wider intervals, or simply to reach the upper regions of the fingerboard, is a whole study by itself. One needs to gain quickness, control, and consistancy in position changes whether ascending or descending.

The bottom line is that (as far as I know) there are no hard and fast rules regarding left hand technique except one. PLANT THE LEFT THUMB!!!!

Pick and choose from what is available, just keep your left thumb consistently (but not always) behind the 2nd finger of the left hand for major scales. For minor scales I usually place the thumb behind the 1st finger of the left hand (but not always).

There are exceptions, as you develope technique, you will gain an understanding of the many exceptions such as extended scales and positioning.

Steve Bailey has killer fretless technique and he has small hands. Check his teaching material. His extended arpeggios are an excellent resource.

Good luck to you.

[edspyhill02]

Thank you NickBass & FretLessSince68 for the information and advice. Saturday I had my first URB lesson with my Palatino EUB. The teacher starts all beginners with the bow. I was not aware of the complexity of the art and technique of tone production with a bow. So now that I've actually started upright bass lessons I'm sort of out of my rambling questions phase. That is a good thing.

I plan to work on my bowing techique for the next 2 weeks, really focus in on my sound. The teacher made reference to bad tone and I asked him to show me how to make bad tone so I know what it sounds like from the beginning. He showed how to get a big fundamental and then how to get more of the upper harmonics of a note.

He is using the Simandl book 1 method so I'm sure that will have an affect on my LH fingering and how I play scales. The first thing I learned is I may have to rent an URB. The EUB string curvature is not curved enough for accurate bowing.

I'm check in with occasional updates/ravings of my new love affair with the upright bass.

Ed S.

[bassike]

Hi, I do have the book mentioned by Nickbass and it is a good one.
I also use Simandl and Bille for the bass it hepls me learn the fretboard and my reading.
and for the positions i play one finger per fret when i srtudy and in real playing sometimes when i'm in the low end region, it is more easy for me to use the upright bass thecnique.
so take your time playing those scales and Simandl exercises and try all kind of fingering and see what works for ya.
Virgilio

[NickBass]

Another good one I heard a lot of is Ray Brown's upright bass book, does anybody ever used that? Accordin to Sting is sort of a bestseller!

[edspyhill02]

Another question while I wait for my fretless to wind its way to me in Fedex trucks - Do you have ways to find one or more "home" positions on the fingerboard? I've read that the best way to practice intonation is to play in a dark room. How do you find say a closed G-scale without looking? I'm imagining fretless players have "home" positions they can find without looking and testing each note. I'm thinking that I might be able to find the first open position and play some open scales then maybe go from there.

I know fretless demands eartraining to go along with muscle memory to "remember" notes/scales/etc. I've been noodling on the EUB and hearing the intervals is not as impossible as it seems. (BTW, I had to stop the URB lessons after one lesson, work just keeps sucking up more of my time. CG has to take precedence at this time.)

I have Steve Bailey's book and he starts out learning octaves. It will all be somewhat less of a mystery when I get the fretless bass in my hands.

Ed S.

[FretLessSince68]

That is actually a very good question for any fretless player, regardless of skill. Believe me, I have sweat-ed bullets worrying about getting the pitch right when the light man blacks out the stage.

Some bass makers such as Warwick and Alembic custom install LED side markers that solve the problem of a darkened room or stage.

I played a URB once where somebody had placed tiny round-head brass brads on the back of the neck at the major positions. Same idea as the little bumps on the F and J keys of the computer keyboard, you can feel the positions. I wouldn't do this to one of my basses but it probably works.

Unlike URB, the neck of electric basses do not have a convenient Eb (on the G string) where the left hand meets the "heel". Thus the fretless electric player needs another strategy to locate a known pitch.

Knowing the fingerboard is really a matter of practicality for me, the terror of not knowing what notes are under my hands (on stage) was a "once was more than enough" experience. I find it very practical to ALWAYS be aware of where the left hand is, AND I don't let it slide or move off the neck unless I'm not playing (or there is lots of light). For me, the left hand is "always on", always ready to hit a nice accurate solid good sounding note.

When practicing scales, say the name of the note out loud until you are always aware of what note(s) you have on hand. Sloow is good.

Do you have ways to find one or more "home" positions on the fingerboard?

Yes, you can feel the positions where harmonics exist. The three most important are located at the 5th, 7th, and 12th positions. You will notice when playing with harmonics that the sensation of string vibration lessens at the locality of a harmonic. Since this is done by feel, you can do it very softly, or turn down the instrument volume until you find a known position.

For me there are no real "home" position(s) except the open strings, and their adjacent string 5th and 7th position equivalents. The key is to know where you are, and know where you are going. I don't think about it consciously but I use a system sort of like dead reckoning. I start from a known position and when I have to change positions in the dark I have a "Feel" for the interval I am going to shift. Put another way. If you know where you are and call it point A, then move a known distance on the neck, you should still be at a known location because you shifted a known distance from a known point. This does take some practice to get a feel for the diminishing size of intervals as you move up the neck. Eventually, after many repetitions, it should become second nature.

You need to know where you are, and where you are going at all times. When you are on a position, keep the thumb planted until you have to make a position shift.

I've read that the best way to practice intonation is to play in a dark room.

Agree, that is a good exercise for left hand and ear training, but playing scales at home in the dark is not the same as being onstage in the middle of a show and it goes black. I carry a small music stand lamp that will prevent that little problem. Even a little light is better than none.

Yes, I admit it, I look at the fingerboard, and use side markers. I likes my side markers.

If you are in a situation where it is dark and you really have lost your pitch reference, play an open string appropriate for the tune you are playing (if possible) and re-establish your left hand position by finding (pitch matching) that same note on the 5th or 7th position of the adjacent string. This would also be a good dark room exercise, pitch match your open strings to notes found on adjacent strings at the 5th and 7th positions.

Another thing you can do is play an ascending slide (glissando) until your ear tells you that it is the right note. Now plant your thumb and establish position.

[edspyhill02]

Thank you very much for the help and advice. I'm going to see if I can adapt "Essential Elements for Stings, Double Bass" to fretless bass guitar. I see learning fretless, even with a lined fingerboard, as learning a completely different instrument than a fretted bass. Part of that quest is caused by my loving to learn new things and to formalize processes. I guess that's why I'm an old geezer still working in IT.

I think you mentioned you have used Simandl. Here's an interesting article. Not sure if you are aware of it.

http://doublebassblog.org/2006/11/rabba ... ative.html

If I'm successful with the "Essential Elements" book I'll post the steps I followed.

Ed S.

[FretLessSince68]

An interesting article. Reading it impresses me with the importance of realizing that the electric fretless bass is a completely separate instrument from either upright bass (URB) or the guitar, yet has similarities to both.

The point being, adopting some URB technique may be beneficial to the fretless electric bassist, yet could be harmful to adopt it all. Similarly, adopting some guitar technique may benefit the fretless player, but it would be ignorant to think that being a qualified guitarist also makes one a decent bassist.

You should also realize that there are very few players who have an authoritative command of both URB and electric bass (Brian Bromberg notable as an exception). This substantiates the fact that the two instruments should not be confused, except that they have similarities, and play a similar role in music.

[NickBass]

Talking about pitch-control, I found very useful practicing scales involving open strings as tonic note (like an A or E scale) playing the open string after any note on the fingerboard to check if the pitch is correct...to be honest with you, I' ve reached a quite good control of lined finerboards, but I'm still working on unlined ones, sometimes I'm in perfect pitch and sometimes not really...it's just a matter of time!!!
It's true, URB is a completely different intrument as approach (while the sound may be similar)...but guys like Bromberg, Patitucci ,Stanley Clarke and Tom Kennedy are amazing on both electric and acoustic instruments!!

[edspyhill02]

FretLessSince68, NickBass - thanks for the responses and advice.

Since you both have been playing Bass much longer than I have I have a comment and question. I get the impression that URB players think of the root note as the tonal center and move above and below that root, while bass guitar players think of the root as the bottom and everything else moves up from the root.

The first scale lesson in the Essential Elements book is to start with the G-scale down from the open G-string.

How accurate is that observation?

Ed S.

[Rando]

I started out with frets and first played fretless many years later.

Start getting the roots, 5ths and octaves in tune up and down the neck.

After that, just play it. You gotta pay more attention to finger placement, but as you go along it all gets more "automatic" and then one day you realize how much fun a fretless bass really is.

Relax, and enjoy...

[FunkDaFied]

Thank you NickBass & FretLessSince68 for the information and advice.

Thank you guys

With my fretless lined board, I finaly understood, it's important to play on line and not between like fretted bass.

It's so cool

No Fret, No limit...

[FretLessSince68]

Regarding edspyhill02's question:

I get the impression that URB players think of the root note as the tonal center and move above and below that root, while bass guitar players think of the root as the bottom and everything else moves up from the root. How accurate is that observation?

From a piano players point of view playing from the bottom up is known as 1st inversion where an arpeggio is typically built 1st, 3rd, and 5th of a triad. This is sort of a convention and bass lines often grow from this way of thinking about the bass players role. Then add on other notes to make it more pleasing or lead to another chord, usually returning to the tonic (of the chord) on beat one.

Whether or not a bassist plays high or low on the instrument depends on a few things.

Classical URB players pretty much play what is written, and they are very good at doing that. Generally they don't analyze the harmonic structure of a piece except how the accidentals effect the key signature (or vice versa).

Jazzers on the other hand are all about understanding the harmonic structure of a tune. This opens up the note choices available that often are not key centered, such as music by chromaticists Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, etc. Thus the role of the jazz bassist is often to describe the entire polychromatic chord including the upper tri-tone as well as hold down the bottom (lower tri-tone).

So, to answer your question about playing higher up on the instrument. Jazzers on URB will play in the higher regions frequently because notes in the upper tri-tone often sound bad when played in lower octaves. For example: In a Bm7b5 chord (Locrian when related to key of C) the lower tri-tone in 1st inversion consists typically of B, D, and F (1st, 3rd, and b5), the upper tri-tone may consists of A, C, E, and/or G (dom7, b9, b5, 6th). True this example has seven notes an is the scale that goes with the chord. If the bass player chooses to play a C note (b9) in the lower region of the bass it is going to sound very sour, but if played an octave (or two) up, the C note will be sonorous with the chord. The C note sounds sour down low in relation to the tonic of the chord because it is only one semi tone away (from the tonic). This also applies to any other note that may conflict with the piano players left hand.

This is not the only reason jazz URB players often play higher on the instrument, jazz involves much more subtlety than many other styles of music and it's not about power, it's about finesse, beauty. Often the jazz bassist is going to give a shout to the melody and that is usually nicer sounding up higher.

Another way of looking at it is to understand that a lot of (but not all) electric bassists playing popular music are not trained to the extant that jazz musicians are. This means that non-jazzers often play parts, specific bass lines usually built from the bottom up such as classic rock lines. Whereas the jazzer is almost always spontaneously creating his/her lines as the chords go by. A jazz bassist will grab the best note for the moment, this means that he/she is not regimented in starting a chord with a low pitched tonic, thus enabling staying in the higher regions of the instrument.

Personality also plays a role, some bassist like to keep down low, while others like it up there. Strength and endurance is sometimes a factor, playing the URB for several hours is an athletic endeavor. If one gets fatigued it is usually easier to stay in the upper regions.

This is not the end of discussion regarding why jazz URB players often play higher on the instrument but is a start.

So if you want to sound more like an URB player performing jazz. Study some music theory and learn to think like an upright player. Most importantly, get in a jazz combo and experience the music.