I have a Basstar 4-string fretless, maple neck/fingerboard. The side position dots are placed for a fretted bass so I want to remove the dots and fill the holes. Anyone have experience doing this? I have not been able to find wood dowels to fill the holes, would a good wood filler work?
Ed S.
Any experience filling in side position dot holes?
-
FretLessSince68
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:29 am
- Location: On an Island, WA, USA
I have done this modification to several of my fretless basses and indeed it is essential for good intonation. Improperly placed side markers are just a distraction and are worse than useless. Why do bass makers persist in doing it totally wrong?! The answer to my rhetorical question is that it is cheaper to produce a fretless bass using the fretted version jigs. Plain and simple.
Just in case the readers have not yet figured this out, the correct side marker locations for fretless bass are exactly ON the positions and not in between fret lines as seen on fretted instruments.
OK, rant over.
To answer your question, yes you can use filler in the holes. Chances are that commercial filler will be darker then the surrounding wood. You can make your own filler using wood glue and Maple saw dust or sanding dust. Just mix and fill, this would be the easiest method, still may not match but it is easy.
Replacing the side markers is not a big deal, definitely DIY proposition. Here is how you do it, you will need some tools.
An option that you may want to consider is covering the existing side markers with dots of Almond (or color to match your instrument) paint. This is reversable by scraping it off, looks OK and is much less work.
*** DISCLAIMER ***
It is your responsibility to use care and diligence, operating all tools safely without injury to yourself or others.
I am not a luthier, if you perform this modification to your instruments any imperfections or negative outcome is not my responsibility.
There may be mistakes or ommissions in this advice.
*** END DISCLAIMER ***
Tools:
Dremel tool. preferably a small battery operated unit.
Very small drill for Dremel, smallest you can get.
Standard Drill, also preferably battery operated.
Drill bits.
Table Saw for cutting maple strips, or a drill operated dowel cutter of the same diameter as the drill you plan to drill out the old markers.
Sharp (I mean sharp) chisel or wood carving knife.
Mill Bastard file (optional).
Very fine sanding papers 600 to 1500 grit.
Polishing compound such Meguiar's ScratchX and polisher. An automotive polisher or elbow grease will do.
Vise (optional), for holding Maple while cutting dowels with dowel cutter.
Dowel cutter, about 3/32" or the minimum size that is greater then the diameter of your existing side markers.
Small Mallet or small hammer.
Diagonal side cutters or very fine craft saw.
Super Glue (CA)
Super Glue solvent
Wood Glue
The first thing you need to do is commit to performing this modification. Once you start drilling out the old markers there is no turning back.
Before drilling you need to write down some measurements that may get obscured. The new markers should be at the same distance below the fingerboard surface as the old ones. Measure this now and make a note of it. Usually about 1/16" of wood showing between fingerboard and beginning of marker edge.
Drilling out the old markers:
Determine the depth of your existing side markers by making a note of when the drill dust turns from dot material to wood. This is your drill depth.
Put a piece of tape on your drill bits at the depth of your existing side markers or 1/4" maximum, this to prevent drilling too deep. Precision in centering is very important to avoid using an overly large drill bit. Using the smallest bit you have in your Dremel tool, precisely locate the center of each side marker and drill a pilot hole in each exactly in the center to your determined depth. If the existing side markers are plastic or some other soft material it should be no problem starting. If the existing side markers are metal or some other hard material then gently use a sharp center punch and great care to make sure that your drill does not wander off center.
Determine the correct size drill bit that will remove the old markers yet be minimally larger. This is the size of your new dowels so plan ahead at this stage. Is a dowel cutter available in this size? I use 3/32" but your requirements may be different. Mark your drill at your previously determined depth and drill out each side marker where you drilled the pilot holes. Don't let your drill skip out of the pilot hole, go slowly.
Dowels:
If your neck is painted or made from Graphite etc. you are better off filling. For graphite I use epoxy.
Depending on your existing neck you will need a maximum of 12 small pieces of dowel. They will be about 3/32" diameter and set into your neck a maximum of 1/4" but you should make them about 1/2" long. Not much Maple stock is needed. Make some extra dowels in case they break prior to installation or look bad.
Since your neck is natural finish Maple you need doweling that is a close match. But wait! the doweling you can buy at the store will show end grain where you plug the holes and you don't want that as it will show strongly. You need to make your own dowels where the grain showing runs the same way as the side of your neck. It's not hard, you can even whittle them with a pocket knife.
Select a piece of Rock Maple, or ordinary furniture grade Maple that looks similar to the wood in your neck. Even though you are going to need a very small amount of Maple, purchase enough to hold in a vise or run through a saw.
If opting to whittle your dowels using a table saw cut a couple of Maple strips WITH THE GRAIN ORIENTED THE SAME AS YOUR NECK. Cut these strips into smaller pieces that you would consider square dowels. Now whittle these down with your favorite whittling knife or scraper.
Using a dowel cutter is much easier and faster but you will probably need to buy one.
Inserting dowels:
You are now prepped to set the new dowels in the holes. It is important to grain match as you set the dowel in it's hole. look at the top of each dowel and check for grain direction and color match. If a piece of dowel is off color or looks bad reject it in favor of one of the spares you made. Apply a small amount of ordinary wood glue and have a wet paper towel or rag handy to wipe away excess glue. Set the dowel in the hole with grain oriented correctly and tap in place using your Mallet. Don't tap too hard or the dowel will break and you will have to re-drill it. The dowel should go in about 1/4" with 1/4" sticking out. If it doesn't it not important, these do not significantly effect the structural integrity of the neck. Wipe off excess glue with wet rag. Move on the remaining dowels. Cut off the doweling sticking out. Cut them above the surface of your neck using diagonal side cutters or a very fine craft saw. I use the saw as it provides better control and does not crush wood fibres. It's a good idea to mask the areas of your neck around the holes at this stage to avoid tool marks. Next use the sharp chisel to pare the dowel down close to the neck surface. Be careful not to go into your neck or finish. Sanding will come later.
New position markers:
Now that you have all of the old dowels plugged it is time to work on the new position markers. On my basses the replacement side markers are glow in the dark epoxy that I mix up myself. You decide what you want. If it's white or black plastic then no problem, go to Stewart MacDonald http://www.stewmac.com/ and buy their Plastic Side Dot Material. They also sell pre-cut Side Dots in pearl and Abalone. You can also use metal rod.
If you want to go with glow in the dark side markers ask me to describe how I did it.
Laying out the marker positions:
Moving on the the new side markers. As you know, these new markers must be placed exactly on the relevant positions. If your bass has fret lines then it's easy just install them at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th lines and replicate the same above the 12th position.
If you don't want a marker at the 11th position that's OK, this is the way I think it should be done.
Lay down a strip of blue masking tape on the side of your neck. Put your new position marker marks on this tape. Be precise, these new marks are your intonation guides.
If your fingerboard is not lined then it's a bit harder. Either buy a fret scale template from StuMac for your scale length, or transfer the positions from a fretted bass of the same scale length.
Once you have your position marks on the tape you need to mark the distance from the fingerboard surface to the center of the new side markers. Using the measurement you took previously mark the center of each new marker. Make sure to adjust for any difference in marker diameter. Check your work to make sure all marks are even, aligned, and straight.
Drill new holes:
Using the same very small drill bit carefully drill a pilot hole at each new marker position to the depth you need. Now using a drill bit that matches the diameter of your new side dot material, drill the larger holes to the predetermined depth. Leave the masking tape on.
Install new markers:
You are now ready to install the new side marker material. Pre-cut as many as you will need to about 1/2" length, plus a couple more. With plastic, wood glue will do but super glue will work too. Using a pin apply a very small amount of the glue into the hole (without spilling any) and quickly tap a pre cut length into the hole. Leave the extra length sticking out for now.
When all of the new side markers are glued in place set it aside for the glue to cure. Not long for super glue and about a half a day for wood glue.
Cut off the excess length as before, trim using a very sharp chisel or carving knife, close to but not all the way down the the surface of the neck.
Now it is time for the final steps. If you have scratched or otherwise damaged the finish of your neck you will probably want to refinish it. if you have not damaged it you can get away with spot repairs. Spot repair will probably leave small imperfections (high spots), if you want it perfect, take the instrument to a professional for neck refinishing.
Refinishing the neck is another posting so I will not get into it here. Besides I would rather avoid that.
Spot finish the dowels and markers:
Remove the masking tape and re-mask it just below the fingerboard revealing the work you have done.
Using a fine mill bastard file remove excess material from the dowels and side markers, avoid contacting the neck finish. Easier said than done, be careful to not scratch the finish. Mask around the work as needed. When you are satisfied that the dowels and new side markers are level with the neck finish you are ready for spot finishing.
Super glue works well for spot finish repairs and polishes very nicely. Using the thin CA, or even hardware store CA apply just enough to cover each dowel and new side marker. Have CA solvent on hand for emergency clean up in case you get Super Glue somewhere it should not be. All you need is a dot of Super Glue on each dowel and side marker. I use a small nail where I filed the point flat as an applicator.
Set the instrument aside for the glue to cure.
Smoothing and polishing:
After the Super Glue dries you are going to fine sand the area where you installed dowels and new side markers. Using 600 grit wet sand the area lightly, try to avoid going through the finish, the object is to get the dowels and side markers at the same level as the neck. Mask around the work to keep the grit off of the finish. You might also try wrapping a small bit of sand paper to a stick such as a coffee stirrer. Then move to the 1500 grit sand paper to finish it. AVOID SANDING THE EXISTING FINISH. You are finished sanding when you have the Super Glue just about down to the level of the original finish.
Now the final process, polishing. I use McGuire's ScratchX but other polishing compounds are fine. Automotive products work great. I use an orbital polisher with soft pads but just about any polisher will do. Remove all masking tape and polish the side of the neck.
If you do not have access to a polisher you can use a cloth and polishing compound. Lots of rubbing will do the trick. If you do not have polishing compound toothpaste will do a surprisingly good job.
I hope this helps.
Just in case the readers have not yet figured this out, the correct side marker locations for fretless bass are exactly ON the positions and not in between fret lines as seen on fretted instruments.
OK, rant over.
To answer your question, yes you can use filler in the holes. Chances are that commercial filler will be darker then the surrounding wood. You can make your own filler using wood glue and Maple saw dust or sanding dust. Just mix and fill, this would be the easiest method, still may not match but it is easy.
Replacing the side markers is not a big deal, definitely DIY proposition. Here is how you do it, you will need some tools.
An option that you may want to consider is covering the existing side markers with dots of Almond (or color to match your instrument) paint. This is reversable by scraping it off, looks OK and is much less work.
*** DISCLAIMER ***
It is your responsibility to use care and diligence, operating all tools safely without injury to yourself or others.
I am not a luthier, if you perform this modification to your instruments any imperfections or negative outcome is not my responsibility.
There may be mistakes or ommissions in this advice.
*** END DISCLAIMER ***
Tools:
Dremel tool. preferably a small battery operated unit.
Very small drill for Dremel, smallest you can get.
Standard Drill, also preferably battery operated.
Drill bits.
Table Saw for cutting maple strips, or a drill operated dowel cutter of the same diameter as the drill you plan to drill out the old markers.
Sharp (I mean sharp) chisel or wood carving knife.
Mill Bastard file (optional).
Very fine sanding papers 600 to 1500 grit.
Polishing compound such Meguiar's ScratchX and polisher. An automotive polisher or elbow grease will do.
Vise (optional), for holding Maple while cutting dowels with dowel cutter.
Dowel cutter, about 3/32" or the minimum size that is greater then the diameter of your existing side markers.
Small Mallet or small hammer.
Diagonal side cutters or very fine craft saw.
Super Glue (CA)
Super Glue solvent
Wood Glue
The first thing you need to do is commit to performing this modification. Once you start drilling out the old markers there is no turning back.
Before drilling you need to write down some measurements that may get obscured. The new markers should be at the same distance below the fingerboard surface as the old ones. Measure this now and make a note of it. Usually about 1/16" of wood showing between fingerboard and beginning of marker edge.
Drilling out the old markers:
Determine the depth of your existing side markers by making a note of when the drill dust turns from dot material to wood. This is your drill depth.
Put a piece of tape on your drill bits at the depth of your existing side markers or 1/4" maximum, this to prevent drilling too deep. Precision in centering is very important to avoid using an overly large drill bit. Using the smallest bit you have in your Dremel tool, precisely locate the center of each side marker and drill a pilot hole in each exactly in the center to your determined depth. If the existing side markers are plastic or some other soft material it should be no problem starting. If the existing side markers are metal or some other hard material then gently use a sharp center punch and great care to make sure that your drill does not wander off center.
Determine the correct size drill bit that will remove the old markers yet be minimally larger. This is the size of your new dowels so plan ahead at this stage. Is a dowel cutter available in this size? I use 3/32" but your requirements may be different. Mark your drill at your previously determined depth and drill out each side marker where you drilled the pilot holes. Don't let your drill skip out of the pilot hole, go slowly.
Dowels:
If your neck is painted or made from Graphite etc. you are better off filling. For graphite I use epoxy.
Depending on your existing neck you will need a maximum of 12 small pieces of dowel. They will be about 3/32" diameter and set into your neck a maximum of 1/4" but you should make them about 1/2" long. Not much Maple stock is needed. Make some extra dowels in case they break prior to installation or look bad.
Since your neck is natural finish Maple you need doweling that is a close match. But wait! the doweling you can buy at the store will show end grain where you plug the holes and you don't want that as it will show strongly. You need to make your own dowels where the grain showing runs the same way as the side of your neck. It's not hard, you can even whittle them with a pocket knife.
Select a piece of Rock Maple, or ordinary furniture grade Maple that looks similar to the wood in your neck. Even though you are going to need a very small amount of Maple, purchase enough to hold in a vise or run through a saw.
If opting to whittle your dowels using a table saw cut a couple of Maple strips WITH THE GRAIN ORIENTED THE SAME AS YOUR NECK. Cut these strips into smaller pieces that you would consider square dowels. Now whittle these down with your favorite whittling knife or scraper.
Using a dowel cutter is much easier and faster but you will probably need to buy one.
Inserting dowels:
You are now prepped to set the new dowels in the holes. It is important to grain match as you set the dowel in it's hole. look at the top of each dowel and check for grain direction and color match. If a piece of dowel is off color or looks bad reject it in favor of one of the spares you made. Apply a small amount of ordinary wood glue and have a wet paper towel or rag handy to wipe away excess glue. Set the dowel in the hole with grain oriented correctly and tap in place using your Mallet. Don't tap too hard or the dowel will break and you will have to re-drill it. The dowel should go in about 1/4" with 1/4" sticking out. If it doesn't it not important, these do not significantly effect the structural integrity of the neck. Wipe off excess glue with wet rag. Move on the remaining dowels. Cut off the doweling sticking out. Cut them above the surface of your neck using diagonal side cutters or a very fine craft saw. I use the saw as it provides better control and does not crush wood fibres. It's a good idea to mask the areas of your neck around the holes at this stage to avoid tool marks. Next use the sharp chisel to pare the dowel down close to the neck surface. Be careful not to go into your neck or finish. Sanding will come later.
New position markers:
Now that you have all of the old dowels plugged it is time to work on the new position markers. On my basses the replacement side markers are glow in the dark epoxy that I mix up myself. You decide what you want. If it's white or black plastic then no problem, go to Stewart MacDonald http://www.stewmac.com/ and buy their Plastic Side Dot Material. They also sell pre-cut Side Dots in pearl and Abalone. You can also use metal rod.
If you want to go with glow in the dark side markers ask me to describe how I did it.
Laying out the marker positions:
Moving on the the new side markers. As you know, these new markers must be placed exactly on the relevant positions. If your bass has fret lines then it's easy just install them at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th lines and replicate the same above the 12th position.
If you don't want a marker at the 11th position that's OK, this is the way I think it should be done.
Lay down a strip of blue masking tape on the side of your neck. Put your new position marker marks on this tape. Be precise, these new marks are your intonation guides.
If your fingerboard is not lined then it's a bit harder. Either buy a fret scale template from StuMac for your scale length, or transfer the positions from a fretted bass of the same scale length.
Once you have your position marks on the tape you need to mark the distance from the fingerboard surface to the center of the new side markers. Using the measurement you took previously mark the center of each new marker. Make sure to adjust for any difference in marker diameter. Check your work to make sure all marks are even, aligned, and straight.
Drill new holes:
Using the same very small drill bit carefully drill a pilot hole at each new marker position to the depth you need. Now using a drill bit that matches the diameter of your new side dot material, drill the larger holes to the predetermined depth. Leave the masking tape on.
Install new markers:
You are now ready to install the new side marker material. Pre-cut as many as you will need to about 1/2" length, plus a couple more. With plastic, wood glue will do but super glue will work too. Using a pin apply a very small amount of the glue into the hole (without spilling any) and quickly tap a pre cut length into the hole. Leave the extra length sticking out for now.
When all of the new side markers are glued in place set it aside for the glue to cure. Not long for super glue and about a half a day for wood glue.
Cut off the excess length as before, trim using a very sharp chisel or carving knife, close to but not all the way down the the surface of the neck.
Now it is time for the final steps. If you have scratched or otherwise damaged the finish of your neck you will probably want to refinish it. if you have not damaged it you can get away with spot repairs. Spot repair will probably leave small imperfections (high spots), if you want it perfect, take the instrument to a professional for neck refinishing.
Refinishing the neck is another posting so I will not get into it here. Besides I would rather avoid that.
Spot finish the dowels and markers:
Remove the masking tape and re-mask it just below the fingerboard revealing the work you have done.
Using a fine mill bastard file remove excess material from the dowels and side markers, avoid contacting the neck finish. Easier said than done, be careful to not scratch the finish. Mask around the work as needed. When you are satisfied that the dowels and new side markers are level with the neck finish you are ready for spot finishing.
Super glue works well for spot finish repairs and polishes very nicely. Using the thin CA, or even hardware store CA apply just enough to cover each dowel and new side marker. Have CA solvent on hand for emergency clean up in case you get Super Glue somewhere it should not be. All you need is a dot of Super Glue on each dowel and side marker. I use a small nail where I filed the point flat as an applicator.
Set the instrument aside for the glue to cure.
Smoothing and polishing:
After the Super Glue dries you are going to fine sand the area where you installed dowels and new side markers. Using 600 grit wet sand the area lightly, try to avoid going through the finish, the object is to get the dowels and side markers at the same level as the neck. Mask around the work to keep the grit off of the finish. You might also try wrapping a small bit of sand paper to a stick such as a coffee stirrer. Then move to the 1500 grit sand paper to finish it. AVOID SANDING THE EXISTING FINISH. You are finished sanding when you have the Super Glue just about down to the level of the original finish.
Now the final process, polishing. I use McGuire's ScratchX but other polishing compounds are fine. Automotive products work great. I use an orbital polisher with soft pads but just about any polisher will do. Remove all masking tape and polish the side of the neck.
If you do not have access to a polisher you can use a cloth and polishing compound. Lots of rubbing will do the trick. If you do not have polishing compound toothpaste will do a surprisingly good job.
I hope this helps.
One good note makes my day.
Thank you very much for the detailed and comprehensive instructions. I tried to find 3/32' dowels local but only found 1/8". I tried toothpicks but they are too dark. The plastic wood filler has been too thick so I plan to dilute the wood filler the next try. I'm also looking for a light maple stain to fade-in the old holes with the maple fingerboard.
I'm not sure how many side dot markers to add.
It seems like it shouldn't matter but with the old side markers filled in I am much less distracted playing.
Thanks again.
Ed S.
I'm not sure how many side dot markers to add.
It seems like it shouldn't matter but with the old side markers filled in I am much less distracted playing.
Thanks again.
Ed S.
-
FretLessSince68
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:29 am
- Location: On an Island, WA, USA
Agree, painting over the old markers and creating new painted on dots in the correct places is a valid way to make the modification. Search this board for more info on how to do this.
If your thumb technique is good wearing off should not be a problem.
I added dots of photo luminescent paint over the white, works great.
This method is fully reversable, if you need to restore the instruments previous appearance and functionality it is just a matter of scraping the paint off.
If your thumb technique is good wearing off should not be a problem.
I added dots of photo luminescent paint over the white, works great.
This method is fully reversable, if you need to restore the instruments previous appearance and functionality it is just a matter of scraping the paint off.
One good note makes my day.