Need Advice On Pickups.

[Trykon300]

Greetings Gentlemen and Ladies, I am brand new to this sight, but have already found so much helpful information!
I have never been into fretless basses until a guy let me play his Pentabuzz at our church. I'm in love! The situation is that I bought an American Deluxe Jazz for my fretted bass, and pulled the frets out of my Carvin 6 string. The Split coil humbucker was installed two years after I go the bass and the installer placed them about an inch closer to the bridge which gives it a great jazz tone with frets, but I'm not pleased with the sound now. The Carvin electronics are too hot and distort when I pan to the rear pickups.
I have been slowly, as I can layering the neck with thin layers of epoxy (Mirror coat by System Three Epoxies). Its working great and staying consistent, however I need some good advice on what Bartolini pickups to use to get the muaaahh sound with the fretless. I don't have the money for the Pentabuzz, and realize its not possible to duplicate that sound in the Carvin, however I do think that replacing the Pre-Amp and pickups will change the overall sound.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm seriously considering selling the duck boat for the Buzz though.

[FretLessSince68]

Before installing Bartolini's try a few things to isolate your distortion problem. The current P/Us may not need replacement.

The placement of the P/U closer to the bridge is a good thing fretless tone wise. I wouldn't be dis-satisfied with that particular aspect of your bass.

The hard distortion you describe is a more serious matter.

Is the distortion originating in the Carvin pre-amp, or from the downstream electronics being over driven? You can test this by plugging into other gear with high impedance input or more headroom such as a hardware compressor. If you get this distortion in every case even with a low gain amplifier or mixer then the problem is probably in the bass.

It is possible that the humbucker P/U wired in series is too hot for the input of the Carvin pre. In this case the Carvin pre is not defective, just being driven too hard. Replacing the pre would be one option, inserting a trim pot to reduce the P/U signal would be another.

IF the Carvin pre-amp is defective then replace it. I like the John East U-RETRO pre-amp for fretless. There are other alternatives, I just have not tried them.

Carvins are basically good axes, give it another chance before you dump it.

Come back after you know where the distortion originates, then we can talk about which Bart pair would better suit your needs.

Hope this helps.

[Trykon300]

Will do. I will check on the distortion issue. It does it with all the setups I play. I just purchased a GK MB500 set and it does it there too.

The pickup close to the bridge has proven to sound really really great, unitil recently! Panned to the rear has always been strong, but this is a pretty ugly buzz.

Thanks for the advice! I will look into the issues and return.

[FretLessSince68]

Ah Ha! a clew, as inspector Clouseau would say.

Buzz is not necessarily distortion and vice versa. Which is it buzz, hum, or distortion? Each has a different sound and usually a different cause.

Try to nail it down.

[Trykon300]

I did a little adjusting last night, the rear pickup was a little close to the strings. The Buzz is coming when I pan to the rear split coil and go beyond half way with the mid range while switched on active. It produces a nasty buzz as opposed to a Pentabuzz ..... (crickets)... ok bad joke. It sounds terrible when I do this, so I just wont do this.

I am still waiting on the Mirror Coat to come in. Last week I put 3 really thin layers of the 2 part epoxy from Lowes on the neck. It really helped get more of the fretless sound I am looking for, but its still not there yet.

I will see how the mirror coat changes the sound and play as is for a while, but I'm pretty sure that the Barts will get me closer to what I'm looking for, I just need some advice on which set up would get close to that sound.

[FretLessSince68]

OK, you have a buzz that happens in active mode when you boost the Mid control beyond the center detent while panned to the bridge P/U.

You say that this is a new sound so probably not caused by the person who installed the humbucker, however this is still possible if the problem is a cold (or bad) solder join. Another possible cause of this type of problem is repeatedly moving things around and fatiguing a solder join resulting in an intermittent or separated wire.

This could also be one of several other things:

The bridge P/U or wiring may be poorly shielded, in which case you should have noticed this right after newly installed.

The Mid control may be amplifying a noise that is present anyway but becomes noticeable when Mid is boosted. Try boosting the same frequency using an outboard parametric EQ while in passive mode.

The Mid circuitry may be inherently noisy, in which case you would have noticed this before the new P/U installation. The Carvin pre-amp PCB may be cracked of have a wiring defect causing an electrical problem.

A wiring problem (such as a cold solder joint or loose wire) may have recently appeared.

The Mid circuit may have a defective part.

There may be some other problem that I cannot anticipate.

This problem needs to be resolved before you move on to the subject of changing P/Us. You should either fix it or replace the offending component.

First thing to do is check for bad connections and cold solder joins. Then remove the pre-amp and check both sides of the PCB for cracks and cold solder joins using a loop.

Just guessing, this sounds like a loose wire on the Mid control pot or the pan pot.

Let us know what you find.

[Trykon300]

hmmm.. I've a lot to learn!!!!


I shall investigate and return. My Mirror coat will be in today.

Need Honest Opinion.... Do you think the Carvin setup will be comparable to replacing with all Bart stuff? I know it does sound OK.... but do you think it will sound as good as it would with Bartolini pre-amp and pickups?

[FretLessSince68]

Carvin electronics Comparable to Bartolini? In a word... no. They come from different makers and have different specifications so are bound to perform differently.

To be honest I don't own a Carvin bass so really can not directly compare differences in sound and quality. Ed Friedland endorses Carvin and is a top notch player so I respect his positive opinion of Carvin.

I do have several basses with Bartolini P/Us and Bartolini pre-amps and can say from personal experience that they are very good quality and sound great. Further, Pedulla basses often have Bartolini electronics. Having said that, I prefer John East sweepable mid range pre-amps over Bartolini for fretless.

In my personal opinion, if you choose to replace the Carvin electronics with Bartolini you will be pleased with the quality and sound, however, you may not notice a profound difference in tone.

I strongly urge you to identify the humm problem, and if it is minor, repair it, before swapping out the P/Us and pre-amp. Then, with a properly working bass you will have a realistic point of reference to make crital evaluation.

[Trykon300]

Thanks for your advice.
The problem persists, and I have searched. Its mainly when I boost my mid range with actives turned on. I honestly think its just too hot and needs a pot to cool it down just a bit. However, I am playing with a GK MB500 as a direct out and have found that I do not need actives for any purpose with my Jazz, nor my Carvin. The main reason I have used the actives have been for volume sake until someone told me I needed an active DI. I know I'm behind a little bit, but I'm learning.

I posted a description of my neck endeavour, and must say I am pretty stinkin proud of the way it turned out. I wont be in any hurry to change pickups now, the Mirror Coat Epoxy really gave it that Mwuah sound I anticipated, though it is NOT a buzz bass; much less expensive however. I'd love to post pictures, but it will take me a little bit to learn how to use this site.
Thank you again for all the advice.

[FretLessSince68]

OK, now you are back to distortion, which has a distinct sound different from hum or buzz.

FYI, both hum and buzz are usually steady state sounds whereas distortion usually only manifests when signal is present or the floor level of noise is very high. There are at least three types of distortion, TID, THD, and hard. The first two can often be discerned by the human ear but need measurement to quantify, however the third, hard distortion, is obvious and very unpleasant sounding, not at all like hum or buzz.

You never mentioned what make of replacement P/U installed - active or passive. If the output of this newer P/U is indeed significantly hotter then the original, and is the source of the noise, you should have noticed it immediately after the installation.

The technician or luthier who did this replacement should have tested for, and detected, any distortion before taking your money. Perhaps it's time to take it back to the shop where they did the work.

[Trykon300]

The pick up replacement was in 2000. It was a simple replacement of the standard soapbar Carvin with the Carvin split coil humbucker. The bass has always been very very hot with the actives on. It isnt a hum or buzz, and its not "good" distortion.
Currently, as long as I dont boost the mids beyond half way, then it sounds fine.
I did some playing around on it this morning through an amp and the sound is good. It ia what I expected and I doubt I will pursue any different pick ups at this point.
I attempted to upload the photo to the gallery last night. I havnt checked to see if it is there. Im pretty proud of the way it turned out, since Ive never done anything like this before.

[RIBassplayer]

Hello.. Well here's my story. I played bass years ago and I have always had a bass.... just have'nt been playing. Over the last few years I reaquired the "bug"! I picked up a cheap ($50) Squire bass to make into a fretless (no sence in destroying a good bass). I removed the Rosewood fingerboard and replaced it with a Tiger wood board that I made up myself. I used Gun Stock oil with intermitent 2000 grit sanding. It came out like glass! I installed flatwounds and the sound is fantastic.... but I want better than the OEM pickups from Squire. I'm thinking about installing Bartolinis but really don't know which manufactures would be a better fit for fretless playing.
Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks