Lessons for Fretless Players

FretLessSince68 · Post by **FretLessSince68** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:10 pm

If you want to learn to play the bass, get a bassist to teach you, not a guitarist. For many reasons this is good advice. If you ask a guitar teacher if he/she also teaches bass they will almost invariably say "Yes". This has nothing to do with the various techniques required for bass playing that are not among those a guitarist has developed, it's about making more teaching income.

In my experience I have as yet to meet a guitar teacher with bass students, that has informed a student that there are qualified bassists nearby ready to give personal instruction. The natural inclination of most people is to do things that are in their economic self interest.

In order to protect your own interests, seek out a real bass teacher and not a guitarist, even if he/she is a competent doubler.

For the Fretless player, finding the right teacher is a degree more complicated than for the fretted bassist. Not only do you need to find a real bassist from whom to take lessons, but one who has established fretless chops. I would suggest that you ask the potential teacher for some recordings of their fretless work, or ask to attend a gig where that person will be playing fretless. If they are not able to do those things then ask for a fretless demonstration and hope to be impressed. If they can not satisfy your requests, then move on.

If you are actually in an area with no bass teachers then I suppose a guitarist teaching bass is the least bad alternative, BUT! I would not stay with that teacher too long. Move on as soon as you get the mechanics down. Get in the school music program if you are in school. A band teacher who is a music generalist can teach you about as well as a guitarist. Perhaps better, a band teacher in a school setting is a degreed professional with additional education specific to teaching music, and usually a darn good musician too.

In every case, I think learning to read music is an important goal. School music programs are great for this aspect of playing.

In general, I think it is a good idea to change teachers when things are getting bogged down. Variety is literally the spice of life for bassists. Knowledge of, and the ability to play, various styles is important. If your teacher is good at jazz and theory but can't show you how to slap (if that's what you want to learn) then move on. The jazz guy will probably still be there when you are ready for theory or more refined approaches to the instrument.

One last thing, you are the person who determines what you will gain from lessons. If you work hard and practice, there will be rapid progress. If you are not serious about it then don't blame the teacher or your instrument for lack of accomplishment.

NickBass · Post by **NickBass** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:59 pm

All these things you said are absolutely true...
I feel this matter in particular as I'm a music teacher, not only electric bass but also theory and harmony...I feel that somehow there's a lot of "bad education" in music in general...I have a couple of pupils who are older than I am (I'm 27, they're around 45/50) who can play quite well but have their hands a bit "ruined" because they took lessons from guitar players, so I see things like fretting with just one finger (!) or guys who play just with the pick (nothing against the pick, but I think that one bass players who is mainly a pick player should learn also fingerstyle...same is for a fingerstyle players) bass is not guitar!!! 2 different instruments!...plus, many teachers show to their guys a lot of "tricks-and licks" without explaining them the harmonic concepts behind them ("ok man, now you're playing a perfect fifth, try to change on another key")...and, last but not least, many sudents don't understand really the role of bass...I mean, we all like to solo, play melodies, chords etc...but at the end of the day our main role is to be the harmonic and rhytmic bridge for the other instruments, and most of all to GROOVE!!!
Sorry if this was really long, but I feel alot this discussion....

FretLessSince68 · Post by **FretLessSince68** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:26 pm

NickBass, your input is important and well informed, please continue.

Most welcome, thanks,

NickBass · Post by **NickBass** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:22 pm

Thanks, man...
Actually, I fear to be too harsh when I talk about teaching, but I see too many wrong concepts talking about learning and practicing....talking about fretless teachers, here around where I live I only know a couple of guys who teach fretless bass, both good musicians an good teachers (not necessarily the same thing...), but when someone talks about bass teachers it's usually fretted; I made myself available also for fretless lessons, but until now everibody asked only for fretted...

Personally, I studied at private school electric bass, harmony and theory, but on the fretless I'm mostly self-taught, taking fingerings from my fretted bass knowledges, listening the players I love on albums and asking questions to the older cats...so it's a mixture!
If someone finds this interesting I got better on fretless emulating vocal lines (Stevie Wonder and Al Jarreau expecially) and horns (sax, trumpet...)...

FunkDaFied · Post by **FunkDaFied** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:48 pm

I agree with you.

It's very difficult to find a good teacher for fretless bass.

All interesting people who could teach fretless bass are busy (concert...)

FretLessSince68 · Post by **FretLessSince68** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 pm

Rant warning: This is a rant!

I went to my local music store (primarily Chinese guitars and CD sales) yesterday and noticed that they had three guitar teachers and no bass instructors, while offering bass instruction obviously from the guitarists.

While talking to the store owner I brought up the subject that in all the years I have lived in this small community I have had zero referrals for advanced bass technique from guitarists teaching bass students. The owner put on a very negative attitude and basically wouldn't talk to me from that point on.

This store owner is not interested in having a bass player occupy one of his teaching studios because the ratio of guitar vs. bass students is about 8:2. This means that a bass teacher would lower the economic productivity of his teaching studio whereas a guitarist can book the same space continuously for both guitar and bass students.

This is a serious problem, it appears that the guitar teachers are sucking up all of the bass students and not making them aware that qualified bass instructors even exist. It's not about how good the guitarist is, nor how well qualified he/she is as a teacher, it's about the best education for the bass student, knowing the bass, and being able to teach bass technique and knowledge.

The guitarist teaching bass problem is all about money folks. In my opinion, these individuals do not have the best interests of the bass student in mind, rather their own pocketbook. Keep in mind that a guitar teacher in a music store hands over a percentage of their fee to the store owner. If those instructors were to pass a student out to a private teacher the store would lose it's cut of the business.

I have played both guitar and keyboards in bands, yet do not consider myself so wondrous to teach them, yet many of these guitarist/bass teachers don't even know the five basic right hand techniques for bass playing, let alone time feel subtleties and fretless skill. Not to mention other nuances of our instrument that are not a part of the guitarists bag of tricks.

When a guitarist doubles on bass, most dedicated bassists, upon listening to him/her play, immediately pick up that the player is not a real bassist. Excepting individuals who can indeed double with authenticity.

Once again, receiving bass instruction from a guitarist is like taking Bassoon from a Clarinet player. Not exactly the best way to start out.

NickBass · Post by **NickBass** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:59 am

I am lucky enough, in one of the music schools where I teach,to have a really good and intelligent guitar teacher as collegue, who really wants to know about my instrument and brings his students to my theory courses..
But I have also a student who comes to me every time with panicking left hand fingerings,and when I ask him "What the hell is that?!" he would go "my guitar player told me to do like that and like that"...I just can't understand why he, as a bass player, should credit more his guitarist than a bass teacher!!

FretLessSince68 · Post by **FretLessSince68** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:33 pm

So the old problem continues.

If you are unable to find a fretless teacher, the best advice I can give the fretless student is independent self study in addition to lessons from a qualified fretted bassist.

Search this site for tips and information about scales, position, vibrato, intonation.
Listen to other fretless players via recordings and/or teaching materials.
Concentrate on scales and proper left hand technique.
Practice as much as you are able.
When you feel that your intonation is musical, get in a band and start playing out.
Position, position, position, without position control good intonation while reading is difficult.
Learn how to set-up the fretless, this is important for both ease of playing and good tone.
Don't think of fretless as a poor cousin to the fretted bass. Get the best instrument you can afford, this will bring out your talent.

If you play fretted and fretless, both instruments should have similar ergonomics, number of strings, scale length, width at bridge, strap length. This way you can use either bass for any given song and your muscle memory will be about the same.

NickBass · Post by **NickBass** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:50 am

Great advices as always....
I would add : clean yor fretless neck with care...the fingerboard requires much more attention than a fretted bass, and a dirt one colud affect badly your sound!!

FunkDaFied · Post by **FunkDaFied** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:01 pm

Recently, I saw a bass teacher.
I asked him, if he was able to learn me fretless bass and theory.
He answered me:

Fretted or fretless, it's the same thing. Just pull out the fret. I can teach you fretless bass.

What can I think with answers like that ?

redbeardred · Post by **redbeardred** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:02 am

hey nick, how do you clean your fingerboard. i apply linseed oil every 6 - 8 weeks but have never really cleaned it.

for myself, i didn't seek out a teacher. i had one lesson from a piano player for basic theory, guy at church showed me the octave shape and a girl showed me the major and minor scales. mostly it's been books, listening and most importantly playing with other people. i took up the bass as an alternative for painting, i learn best by doing and was turned off to the ideal of learning 'the right way' to express myself. while it may sound like i'm knocking bass lessons; that just me--what's important is a desire to learn. for instance; i was reading coltrane's bio when i ran across the 10th. the book didn't really explain what it was so i walked to the university music building, knocked on the first door i could hear somebody practicing in and asked them. they were very gracious and had a few questions of their own about coltrane. the 10th is an octave above the 3rd. when i got to ray brown's bass method he coverd it with double and triple stop fingerings.

FretLessSince68 · Post by **FretLessSince68** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:09 pm

Regarding FunkDaFieds' comment made by a "teacher"...

Fretted or fretless, it's the same thing. Just pull out the fret. I can teach you fretless bass.

This is a clear example of hubris in a bass player talking about something he has no experience with. If you see him again, please ask to see one of his fretless basses. If he can't produce such a bass then he probably does not play fretless and may have never played the instrument for more than a few minutes, yet seems to declare himself a "master" of fretless.

Someone who actually plays fretless consistently would not make such an ignorant statement. You might also ask how he maintains his intonation skill if he has no fretless bass.

On the other hand, maybe he is a master of the instrument. In this case he will have at least one fretless bass. Personally, I somehow doubt this person really knows fretless bass. He does appear to have a need for additional students/income.

Redbeard has a valid point. We all are self taught to a certain extent.

An advantage of taking lessons from an experienced teacher is that he/she can save the student the time it takes to re-invent the wheel. Things that took me weeks, months, or in a few cases years to learn in a self taught environment can be related to a student in a methodical logical sequence that reduces or eliminates incorrect approaches and the exploratory stages of acquiring technique and knowledge. Keep in mind that there is more technique to acquire now due to rapid development of electric bass styles and modalities over the last few decades.

A disadvantage of guided learning (lessons) is that the independent minded individual runs the risk of being turned off completely because they don't do well in a focused, structured environment. Then there is the cost, some individuals can learn everything they need from books and on stage experience, it just takes longer. Now that many books are sold with attached CDs or DVDs the needed resources are available for self guided instruction. Then there is the Internet, as time goes by this will mature into an invaluable resource for learning of all types.

There is a one to one relationship between student and teacher that is hard to explain to someone who has not had the experience. When you receive personal instruction from a qualified teacher not only are you getting instruction from him/her but also from the teachers that they learned from, and so on in an unbroken line back as far as it goes in the tradition of music and music instruction. Sometimes hundreds of years. This is part of the magic of music, to be touched by a master from the past via an individual who has shared that same experience with another descendant (in learning) from a master. This really does facilitate bringing out the greatest talent in a student.

There is a cultural aspect to learning music that is more than just technique and theory. Just as the society we live in has a culture that is not found in technical manuals, there is a musical culture that will not be found in books, although the facts supporting that culture will (be found in books).

If you are 100% self taught, or learned only from persons who themselves were self taught and later became instructors, then you are missing this cultural aspect of individual instruction that in some cases goes back many generations.

Nonsense you may say, fine, but I learned more from one such instructor in a few lessons than I learned from all of my prior experience.

Such as:

How to swing...Swing defies notation and is a "feel".
Other rhythmic "feels".
An approach to understanding song construction that enabled "the big picture".
Subtleties of time emphasis that you won't see notated in a book.
Technique that works vs. technique that hurts.
Instant feedback on mistakes such as intonation problems.
Developing and appreciation for the joy of music.
more.

FunkDaFied · Post by **FunkDaFied** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:47 pm

Regarding FunkDaFieds' comment made by a "teacher"...

Fretted or fretless, it's the same thing. Just pull out the fret. I can teach you fretless bass.
This is a clear example of hubris in a bass player talking about something he has no experience with. If you see him again, please ask to see one of his fretless basses. If he can't produce such a bass then he probably does not play fretless and may have never played the instrument for more than a few minutes, yet seems to declare himself a "master" of fretless.

Someone who actually plays fretless consistently would not make such an ignorant statement. You might also ask how he maintains his intonation skill if he has no fretless bass.

On the other hand, maybe he is a master of the instrument. In this case he will have at least one fretless bass. Personally, I somehow doubt this person really knows fretless bass. He does appear to have a need for additional students/income.

I will ask him these questions.

But I think you're right.

I remember when I planed to buy my fretless bass one year ago. I saw him in a music shop. He told me, he wanted to sell his fretless bass, because he didn't use it often.
I answered him, I prefer buying a new bass with more features.
Then I finaly buy my Tune Fretless Bass

redbeardred

To clean my finger board, I use Lemon oil. It's very good.

It feeds the wood and clean it.

NickBass · Post by **NickBass** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:12 am

Hey Redbeardred, sorry for the deelay, I've been away for a while...
For the cleaning of my fretless and fretted necks I'm using lemonoil, it works really well if used in the right dosage and if you dry it with a clean cloth...Mark Egan suggested me to use it!!
After the cleaning, I nourish the fingerboard with fingerboard oil by Roque Thomas, and I make it dry...I don't do that really often, just every 2 string changes...

edspyhill · Post by **edspyhill** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:55 am

I'm trying to be intuitive with finding some sort of home or starting positions on the fretless. From reading other replies from double bass players, there are physical hints, the back of the neck behind the nut, and the heel. We don't have that on BG.

So, here are 2 attempts that might work, even in the dark.
#1) I put finger 1 just on the nut and squeesed the LH fingers together but the ring (3) finger is about on 'F' note. Not too accurate.

#2) I put finger 1 just on the nut and placed the LH fingers in a relaxed position on the board. Now the (2) finger is about on 'F' note. I tried sounding the F-note then quickly moving into half position or position 1. Much better accuracy.

I am working through the "My First Simandl" book. Although the postition names differ I like how the notes are presented on the strings. reinforced by working on several positions.

BTW, lessons with a jass bassist are in my future (DB and BG player). I have to tie up some loose ends at home and at work, then set up the lessons.

Ed S.